Torah-Forum :: View topic - Celebrating sabbath with non-jews

nic · 18 Mar 2006

martin brody wrote:

4) You do not have to have Mevushal wine. Just make sure a gentile does not pour it for a Jew.

Isn't it a little more complicated? I had a look on the matter in Rav Wagschal's Practical Guide to Kashrus (btw., any opinions about this? Seems not detailed enough to my taste), since it was relevant for me in Antwerp; and according to that book - to pick out the most realistic scenarios - the wine remaining in the bottle would be non-kosher (or, to be exact, would require a shaaloh) also when a gentile has poured out something for himself, or when a Jew has poured out from it to a glass which a gentile had drunk from. Altogether, it seems quite understandable that some people would prefer not to have uncooked wine and non-Jews in the house simultanously. (Or at least to place the latter at the distant side of the table and not to give them any wine, for that matter *g*).

Nicole

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

nic wrote:

martin brody wrote:

4) You do not have to have Mevushal wine. Just make sure a gentile does not pour it for a Jew.

Isn't it a little more complicated? I had a look on the matter in Rav Wagschal's Practical Guide to Kashrus (btw., any opinions about this? Seems not detailed enough to my taste), since it was relevant for me in Antwerp; and according to that book - to pick out the most realistic scenarios - the wine remaining in the bottle would be non-kosher (or, to be exact, would require a shaaloh) also when a gentile has poured out something for himself, or when a Jew has poured out from it to a glass which a gentile had drunk from. Altogether, it seems quite understandable that some people would prefer not to have uncooked wine and non-Jews in the house simultanously. (Or at least to place the latter at the distant side of the table and not to give them any wine, for that matter *g*).

Nicole

There are different opinions on this issue. To me, non-mevushal wine poured by a gentle, is not kosher. what remains, is kosher. There are stricter opinions than this, but who cares?
Best,
martin B

enora · 06 Jul 2006

*snickering in the corner*

Retired Moderator · 08 Sep 2004

martin brody wrote:

<snip>

There are different opinions on this issue. To me, non-mevushal wine poured by a gentle, is not kosher. what remains, is kosher. There are stricter opinions than this, but who cares?
Best,
martin B

Martin,

Many people care; the stricter opinion is the only one I'd ever heard of until reading your post. That is, if a non-Jew handles non-mevushal kosher wine (i.e. kosher wine which was not heated up to the point where it is considered "cooked"), it loses its status as kosher -- according to all the views I'd ever seen until reading your post. So if a non-Jew even picks up an open bottle of kosher non-mevushal wine, it loses its kosher status.
Assuming you have a solid rabbinic opinion saying it's kosher as you say, you're welcome to follow it -- but please don't denigrate the views of the majority who disagree.

Kol tuv,

Steve Albert

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

salbert wrote:

martin brody wrote:

<snip>

There are different opinions on this issue. To me, non-mevushal wine poured by a gentle, is not kosher. what remains, is kosher. There are stricter opinions than this, but who cares?
Best,
martin B

Martin,

Many people care; the stricter opinion is the only one I'd ever heard of until reading your post. That is, if a non-Jew handles non-mevushal kosher wine (i.e. kosher wine which was not heated up to the point where it is considered "cooked"), it loses its status as kosher -- according to all the views I'd ever seen until reading your post. So if a non-Jew even picks up an open bottle of kosher non-mevushal wine, it loses its kosher status.
Assuming you have a solid rabbinic opinion saying it's kosher as you say, you're welcome to follow it -- but please don't denigrate the views of the majority who disagree.

Kol tuv,

Steve Albert

Hi Steve,
perhaps you misunderstood my intent.
Anyway. Try R.Ovadia Yosef or R.Yitchak Abadi.
The point is that this Rabbinic halacha ( in this form) is no longer relevant. but that doesn't mean we can change it, but we can certainly minimize it.
Cheers,
martin B

Rachamim Pauli · 05 Apr 2005

Leonard,
Getting back to your original question there are other problems involved. Such as perhaps the Gentile will turn on or off light switches. In your own case, you have not really spent much time with religious families to really appreciate Shabbos yourself. I would suggest you do so.

If the person is a bona fide potential convert such as Ms. Shona whom I invited to the Synagogue of the saintly Rabbi Glixsman of Homestead and I would do the same for Clara. But a potential convert is a different story. But a regular John McCain or Hillary Clinton who have no intent of converting why would I want to invite them? Even if they were friends of mine. I could easily enough invite them over Sunday through Friday noon so why Shabbos

Roo · 18 Sep 2004

It's hard enough having non-religious Jews for a Shabbos or YomTov meal.

I would rather invite a non-religious Jew (which we've done many times) for a meal than have a non-Jew over because the Jew needs it more.

You have have the non-Jew over the other 6 days of the week.

Roo

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

Roo wrote:

It's hard enough having non-religious Jews for a Shabbos or YomTov meal.

I would rather invite a non-religious Jew (which we've done many times) for a meal than have a non-Jew over because the Jew needs it more.

You have have the non-Jew over the other 6 days of the week.

Roo

Inviting a non-Jew on Yom tov is not permitted. Shabbat it is. ( stuff is already cooked, etc.)
Best,
martin B

YisroelP · 14 Sep 2004

martin brody wrote:

Hi Steve,
perhaps you misunderstood my intent.

He ain't the only one. Confused

Anyway. Try R.Ovadia Yosef or R.Yitchak Abadi.

Both very important SEFARDI Poskim [decicors of Jewish Law]. I think, from what I've read, that you take R' Abadi as your Rov for everything, whereas R' Ovadia is, I believe, unique among Poskim in giving both the Ashkenazi and Sefardi ruling. So please post the source in Yabia Omer or Yechaveh Da'at.

BTW, our Rov told me the other day that Lubavitchers hold by "Re'iah", that if a non-Jew or a Jew who doesn't keep Shabbos merely looks at the opened non-mevushal bottle of wine, it becomes forbidden. It's great for Shalom Bayis [family harmony]! Laughing

enora · 06 Jul 2006

Leonard isn't talking about "regular" guests .... he's talking about his father.
Suggesting that he invite his father over sunday as opposed to shabbat lacks empathy. Perhaps he would like to share shabbat with his mother (who is jewish) AND father.
There is no problem in having him over for a shabbat meal. (Like was said, he can avoid certain uncomfy situations easily with a bottle of (good) mevushal wine)

martin brody · 13 Sep 2004

YisroelP wrote:

martin brody wrote:

Hi Steve,
perhaps you misunderstood my intent.

He ain't the only one. Confused

Sorry

Anyway. Try R.Ovadia Yosef or R.Yitchak Abadi.

Both very important SEFARDI Poskim [decicors of Jewish Law]. I think, from what I've read, that you take R' Abadi as your Rov for everything, whereas R' Ovadia is, I believe, unique among Poskim in giving both the Ashkenazi and Sefardi ruling. So please post the source in Yabia Omer or Yechaveh Da'at.

Actually my Rav's Rav's Rav, is R.Abadi. It's not that I follow R.Abadi( I don't eat gelatin, for instance, and R.Abadi does put non-obervant Jews along with Gentiles in this case with wine), but I do ask him Shailas, following the rubric that one can ask any posek. My Rav is not adverse to that and often looks forward to his responses.. I do not remember the source for R.Ovadia. This board is not for definitive Halacha, is it? But rather for sharing different ideas, hopefully from responsible sources.

BTW, our Rov told me the other day that Lubavitchers hold by "Re'iah", that if a non-Jew or a Jew who doesn't keep Shabbos merely looks at the opened non-mevushal bottle of wine, it becomes forbidden. It's great for Shalom Bayis [family harmony]! Laughing

I am familiar with this view. It shows that there is a wide spectrum in Orthodoxy, doesn't it.? I think I'll stick with my practice.
L'Chaim,
Martin B

nic · 18 Mar 2006

Thanks for the clarification Smile

.
Nicole

Emre Khazar · 11 Jun 2006

So, it's perfectly okay for a potential convert to join all of Sabbath, right?

Can he/she pour the wine as well? This seems unlikely, since he's still not Jewish ere conversion.

Leo · 08 Sep 2004

emre,
a potential convert can definitely join for a shabbat, but he mustn't keep the sabbath entirely (he can avoid this by turning on a light or something similar). Additionally, the laws regarding wine etc. are still in effect until conversion is done.

all the best and good to see you (we've missed you lately),
-leo

Emre Khazar · 11 Jun 2006

Thanks

I occasionally want to remind you of my presence, though. I'm posting in a Turkish/Israeli friendship forum lately, and met quite a few Turkish Jews. They don't seem to be very religious, however, so I'll be posting here whenever I need guidance.

It's good to see you again, as well!