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WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

To All,

In this thread, I am going to try BS"D to help us develop a better understanding of Noachide law. It is VITAL that everybody learn this subject.

We must begin by looking at the difference between a religion and a covenant with God. A religion has to do with belief. What you believe is your religion. A covenant is a contract, and a covenant with God is a contract directly with God.

It is imperative to understand this difference, because only then can one begin to appreciate that a covenant with God is always placed FIRST in our lives, and any and all religions are NEVER placed ahead of a covenant with God.

If a religion conflicts with a covenant with God, then it is the religion which is wrong, and not the covenant. This, in my opinion, is why I virtually never see any other religions talking about Noachide law. If your religion has spoken about Noachism, I'd be interested in hearing what they had to say.

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You might now tell me that Noachism must therefore be placed ahead of Judaism as well. Not so. Judaism doesn't work the same way as other religions, BECAUSE Judaism IS ALSO a covenant with God. Avraham, Yitzchak (Isaac), and Yaacov (Jacob), all knew it was coming for the Nation, and in the Valley of Horav, at the base at Har Sinai, 3,316 years ago, God made it happen. A separate covenant was issued by God Himself to the entire Jewish Nation, ALL OF WHOM were there that once in a Creation day.

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The world therefore follows many religions, but in front of them all are the covenants for the Jews, and for all humankind. These covenants, just like any other contracts, contain clauses which spell out dividends for successful performance, and penalties for breach of contract.

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As this thread develops, we will look a closer look at Noachide law, beginning with Adam and Chava (Eve), up through Noach (Noah) himself, and the Bnei Noach (Children of Noach). The B'nei Noach by the way, are YOU and ME, and God made His Noachide Covenant with Noach AND ALSO with the Bnei Noach.

Looking Forward To The Journey, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

To All,

I'd now like to explore another difference between the Covenant of Noachism and other religions. You can choose your religion. You can leave one religion and join a different religion.

You can't do that with Noachism, God won't let you. Your fathers, WAY WAY BACK IN TIME, signed you into this covenant, and you are stuck with it. If you like it, that's wonderful. If you don't like, there isn't a thing you can do about it. God is going to judge you based on how you do with THIS contract. God takes all external factors into account at judgment time, btw, and judges to within a hair's breadth, as only God can do.

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You might ask, "How about Jews? Can a Jew leave Judaism and join another religion?"

Well, a Jew might be able to join another religion, but he cannot leave Judaism and he cannot escape judgment as a Jew. Jews also have a covenant with God and this covenant contains NO ESCAPE CLAUSE.

There are people who will argue with me, and say that Jews CAN leave Judaism. I will ask them a question in response, "If a woman leaves Judaism, will her next child be a Jew?" The answer is that the child WILL be a Jew, so how could the mother have left Judaism?

It is "as if" the mother left Judaism, but in reality a person cannot leave Judaism, as the birth of the Jewish baby attests. Certainly the judgment of the person who tries to leave Judaism will not be pleasant.

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Let this be a caveat for all prospective converts to Judaism. Once in, you have made yourself part of a covenant which contains NO ESCAPE CLAUSE. Not for us...and not for you. So think carefully if you really want the pressure of being judged as a Jew before you take this risky step.

Page 3 Next - Adam and Chava

Looking Forward To The Journey, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

qbzzt · 14 Sep 2004

WebEliahu wrote:

We must begin by looking at the difference between a religion and a covenant with God. A religion has to do with belief. What you believe is your religion. A covenant is a contract, and a covenant with God is a contract directly with God.

This seems like a simple distinction, but it is not. Most religions also spells out things you need to do, which are obligations to G-d. At the same time, contracts imply certain beliefs about the world. Contracts you didn't sign yourself imply many more beliefs.

It makes no sense for a person to be a Noachide unless they believe the following:

1. The world has a maker, an intelligent designer.
2. This maker (we'll call it G-d from now on) cares about individual persons and their actions.
3. At some point in history, G-d made a covenant with our ancestors. He would save them, and they would obey certain rules.
4. This covenant is binding not only on the people who made it, but also on their descendants in perpetuity (or at least until this point in time).
5. The details of the covenant are those in Genesis.

So to be a Noachide one needs to have certain religious beliefs.

At the same time, many variants of Christianity (a religion or a group of religions, depending on how you slice it) believe that salvation is a matter of doing certain things and believing in certain things. Repent of your sins. Do your best not to sin. Attend mass once a week. Sounds very similar to a contract.

Bye,
Ori

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

It makes no sense for a person to be a Noachide unless they believe the following:

This is not correct. You don't have the concept yet, but I will keep trying to make this understood.

Belief matters in religions.

Belief does not matter in a covenant.

God has contracted every human being through their parents, the Bnei Noach (Bereishis/Genesis 9:9).

EVERYBODY IS A NOACHIDE. LIKE IT OR NOT!

There is NO CHOICE. With religions a person has a choice. With a covenant with God, there is no choice.

One can CHOOSE to disobey. One cannot choose not to belong.

The road to Godliness and a positive verdict at judgment time BEGINS by understanding what I have just written.

Best Wishes, Eliahu .. Looking Forward To The Journey, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

lavi chegal · 17 Nov 2004

Point well taken Eliahu, but again, you seem to focusing on a particular, rather than working to explain the whole. The difference between the Brit of Torah to Jews and that of the Brit to the Benei Noach, is correlational to the truth to there being a Jewish Religion and calling the Noachide Covanent a religion...

You are correct that all human beings are part of that Brit, and that no human being can actually change his obligations before G-d...

The rest is sophistry, if I may be so bold as to say so...

Judaism, in reality is no more a religion than the Noachide Brit is, end of story...

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

"But of the Eitz Hadaas (Tree of Knowledge) you shall not eat..." Bereishis (Genesis) 2:17.

Most people are under the impression that this was the only law given to Adam and Chava, a law which they promptly broke. If so, then you do you explain the following?:

Bereishis 4:7 - "...sin rests before the door, yea, its strong desire is unto thee (Cayin/Cain)."

What sin? Sin means violation of God's laws. What laws? Cayin and Hevel (Abel) do not live in Gan Eden. Their parents were kicked out before they were born. Cayin and Hevel therefore do not have the temptation of the Eitz Hadaas. So WHAT SINS could God possibly be talking about?

Answer: What will later be known as the Noachide laws.

When Cayin later slays Hevel, what made this act a sin? Where do we find, "Thou shalt not murder?" Where do we find the rest of the Noachide laws? If God hadn't made these laws, then Cayin slaying Hevel would not have been a sin.

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The answer lies in Oral law. Just as the Jews were given an Oral law, so was Adam. We find, "Do not eat from the Eitz Hadaas" in Bereishis 2:17. One verse earlier, 2:16, God alludes to all of the Noachide laws. We will look at this verse more closely in Page 4.

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You might ask at this point, "Why do we call them Noachide laws, and not Adamic laws? After all, they were given to Adam first. I can think of a number of reasons for this.

1) God altered one of the laws after the Mabul (Flood), the law involving the eating of animals.

2) God made a Covenant, called the "Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach," the Seven Laws Of The Children Of Noah. YOU and I are the Children of Noah being referred to.

3) No covenant was made with Adam. The laws given to Adam were of a different nature than a covenant. These laws more closely resembled God as a store owner, and Adam (You and me) as employees of the store.

With Noach, God made a miraculous change. As a covenant, which is a contract, God took US INTO THE STORE AS HIS PARTNERS IN CREATION. Instead of simply being paid by the management, we were now co-owners. Of course, as co-owners we still had our contractual duties to fulfill.

Ask yourself now which you prefer, being a straight worker for a company, or being a worker/co-owner of the company?

In the World to Come, our relationship with God is going to be entirely different, because we will come to that World as part of the management team, and not as minimum wage employees, all because of our covenantal relationship with God.

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In Page 4, we will take a closer look at the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, as alluded to in Bereishis 2:16.

Best Wishes, Eliahu .. Best Wishes, Eliahu .. Looking Forward To The Journey, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

Lavi,

Be patient grasshopper.

The Rambam wrote 14 books to explain the Torah. I've only written a few short posts, and I'm not finished yet.

Regards, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

lavi chegal · 17 Nov 2004

The Rambam didn't delite so much in beating around the bush my friend!
Wink

its strong desire is unto thee

It should be pointed out that this verse comes before the muder!

One could also add, that G-d created man with a natural ability to tell correct actions from incorrect actions. The sin was that Cain, although motivated to praise G-d, knowingly chose the lowest of value material, so as not to lose money! That was sin, knowing that the desire and action were not in alignment...

Gen 4:7... but thou mayest rule over it.

So too, the murder was something that Cain naturally understood would be wrong. He chose to do it anyway...

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

It should be pointed out that this verse comes before the muder!

Irrelevant Lavi. Sin is being spoken of. What sin? They are not in Gan Eden. There must be laws to break, or no sin is possible.

Now don't sabotage this thread. I'm trying to do a job for our many readers and I don't think you are helping. I don't mind being fought with, or hit over the head, so long as the other readers are not harmed.

Please try to hear what I am saying to you.

This is serious to me. I don't play games when I think peoples lives are at stake, and that is what I think.

Thank you.

lavi chegal · 17 Nov 2004

Eliahu,

Now don't sabotage this thread.

Fair enough, you did start it after all.

Irrelevant Lavi. Sin is being spoken of. What sin? They are not in Gan Eden. There must be laws to break, or no sin is possible.

I was not disagreeing with you Eliahu, just adding an important point! You need to be more accepting of the fact, that although you did start this thread, this is an open forum. I don't believe that my point is irrelevant at all! I also don't believe that it derails your thread.

I would request that give others a chance to be a part of it...

There must be laws to break, or no sin is possible.

The point that I was making, and one that I believe will only add to the thread is that the nature of the commands that today are called, the Seven Laws of Noah, flow from the natural disposition of man!

To restate;

Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD. 4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering; 5 but unto Cain and to his offering He had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell. 6 And the LORD said unto Cain: 'Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen? 7 If thou doest well, shall it not be lifted up? and if thou doest not well, sin coucheth at the door; and unto thee is its desire, but thou mayest rule over it.'

Italics added.
What can we see going on here? Man follows his natural desire to serve
G-d, which is challenged by the second nature, of sin. What is sin? In this case sin was to seek to get away with giving less, and the anger that came from being rejected!

The Seven Laws are that which give man direction for his natural drive, and sin is the law of challenge that proofs the act of man, in the pursuit of Law. Without sin, man cannot say that he actually chose to do good. This is where we see free will coming in...

Cains anger couldn't succeed agains the reality of G-d, so Cain projects it against Abel! That, in a nut shell, is describing the whole world as it stands today! The Seven Laws are there to help shape and direct those natural drives that man was given by his Creator. Obviously, for the Jew, the Torah we have been given goes beyond this, because our job is different than that of the rest of humanity...

qbzzt · 14 Sep 2004

WebEliahu wrote:

It makes no sense for a person to be a Noachide unless they believe the following:

This is not correct. You don't have the concept yet, but I will keep trying to make this understood.

Belief matters in religions.

Belief does not matter in a covenant.

God has contracted every human being through their parents, the Bnei Noach (Bereishis/Genesis 9:9).

EVERYBODY IS A NOACHIDE. LIKE IT OR NOT!

There is NO CHOICE. With religions a person has a choice. With a covenant with God, there is no choice.

I see your point. According to Torah, everybody will be judged as a Noachide. Whether or not they accept the covenant, whether or not they even know about it, is irrelevant.

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

That is correct Q, and is one of the most important fundamental concepts in the Universe. And almost nobody gets it.

I'm now working on a post which I hope everyone will find exceedingly enlightening on Bereishis (Genesis) 2:16-17.

I'll have it finished in a little while.

Best Wishes, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

jjbennoach · 16 Nov 2004

There must be laws to break, or no sin is possible.

I am very uncomfortable with this statement. G-d desires that we conform to His will by using our free will. When we act in a manner not in accord with G-d's will, we violate our relationship with Him. Logic dictates that we be allowed to know ahead of time what behavior would not be in accord with G-d's will. And this information we call 'law' (in English).

In other words 'sin' is possible, so there must be laws, not the other way around.

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

We now take an extended look at God's commandment not to eat from the Aitz Hadaas (Tree of Knowledge).

Bereishis (Genesis) Chapter 2, Verses 16-17 - "And God gave the commandment to Man: From every tree of the garden may thou indeed eat, but from the tree of knowledge of what is good and evil, thou shalt not eat from it..."

We do not have simply a prohibition of eating from the Eitz Hadaas in the above quote. The highlighted part of the quote our sages tell us allude to the Sheva Mitzvos Bnei Noach, The Seven Laws Of The Children Of Noach (Noah). YOU and ME, we are the children of Noach. (The following definitions and applications are a synopsis taken from Rabbi Shimshon Raphael Hirsch.)

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ויצו

Noachide Law #1 - Do not neglect establishing a system of justice.

Vayetzav - "Tzava" means "to appoint someone to his post." He has the duty to see that the "commands" are carried out. The first Noachide duty is to administer justice, to see that God's general laws for all humanity are enforced. This is the basis for life in a society which will be stable.

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יה--וה

Noachide Law #2 - Do not commit blasphemy. (Blasphemy is ANYTHING which reduces the loftiness of God in any way. *I feel sorry for actors who are required to recite blasphemous lines from scripts.)

"Yud -- Hey -- Vav -- Hey" - Man is to keep this Incredible Name holy, this Name for Hashem which represents the unique relationship God has Created between Himself and humankind. You will not find this name for God in the Torah until it is time for Man's Creation. Only for Man is it needed.

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אל--הים

Noachide Law #3 - "Do not commit idolatry."

"Elo -- him" - This is the Name of God which gives all the fixed laws to humankind. Deification of any other being, is accepting and empowering a competitor to the One True God, a competitor who cannot see, cannot eat, cannot hear, and cannot save.

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על-האדם

Noachide Law #4 - Do not murder.

Al-HaAdam - "Upon the Man."

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לאמר

Noachide Law #5 - Do not commit forbidden sexual acts.

Laymore - "Saying" - We pass on what God teaches us from generation to generation. To do so however requires a family life which blossoms through "sexual moral purity."
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מכל עצ-ןגן

Noachide Law #6 - Do not steal.

Micol aitz HaGan - "From every tree of the garden" - Adam has been granted permission to eat from everything that is WITHIN the Garden. To eat anything from OUTSIDE the Garden is forbidden, and would constitute theft.

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אכל תאכל

Noachide Law #7 - Do not eat from the limb of a living animal.

Achol tochal - "You may surely eat" - What we eat must be suitable to be absorbed into our systems, to become a part of us. "Basar behamah," (the flesh of the animal) can be elevated to that of the level of the flesh of man. "Nefesh behamah," (the spirit of the animal) can never be elevated to the level of the spirit of man. Therefore the flesh and the spirit of the animal must be separated before we are permitted to eat the animal.

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There will be a Page 5, Page 6 and more on this thread. Be patient for them.

Best Wishes, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start

WebEliahu · 12 Oct 2004

In other words 'sin' is possible, so there must be laws, not the other way around.

It is fine with me however you wish to express it, so long as the correct conclusion is reached. That conclusions is: That God gave laws to all humankind of which God requires strict observance.

Thus the purpose of this thread, along with a little historical Biblical analysis to help us appreciate our relationship with God in this regard.

Best Wishes, Eliahu .. http://forums.delphiforums.com/chevraeliahu/start